I like Epicurus combination of Virtue and Pleasure more than for example the false dichotomy of the Stoics of Pleasure/ Virtue ( where they mean actually the bad consequences of some choices for Pleasure but mix this)
„Prudence teaches that we cannot live a life of virtue without living a life of Pleasure“
Letter of Menoceus
We need life and a body and to fulfill their natural/ necessary desires ( which brings pleasure ) for being able to be virtous.
Without a body there is no virtue ( Some Stoics thought after death the soul of a Sage exists further what many modern Stoics/ Epicureans would deny, but there was light disregard of pleasure and the body in ancient Stoicism. )
“It is not an unbroken succession of drinking-bouts and of revelry, not sexual love, not the enjoyment of the fish and other delicacies of a luxurious table, which produce a pleasant life; it is sober reasoning, searching out the grounds of every choice and avoidance, and banishing those beliefs through which the greatest tumults take possession of the soul.“ ( Seeds of CBT )
Letter of Menoceus
A Pleasent life is a life where you reflect and fulfill your values and social duties and social desires / feelings( compassion ) for Peace of Mind ( Ataraxia) / Tranquility/ Pleasure for what is also a virtuos Life.
Yes you can take Tranquilizers or Ignore facts of the World for Tranquility but that has often ( not always ) negative consequences (Pain, Trouble of Mind ).
For a surgery or psychological problems pain killers could be rational, an problems in the news where you can do nothing and frustrates one a shift of perspective couldnbe beneficial like the Stoics teach to ignore things/subjects outside of ones Control ( „thats nothing to me“) Sometimes this could be a healthy/prudent form of ignorance. But not always, so do sober reasoning for all your desires and consequences 🤗
So, the summary presented in this post seems to suggest that there really is one over-arching kind of pleasure, ataraxia. It is best because it is not as fleeting and does not have the deleterious consequences of the other kinds of pleasure that you mention; but it is still pleasure because it can be felt: it is a positve feeling, rather than just a neutral void. I mention this so that if my impression is mistaken you can write about it and clarify, maybe over several different posts. Anyway, if my impression is even close to correct, then it is perhaps misleading to speak of an ethics based on pleasure--"hedonistic" ethics--and instead the announced principle should be, say, 'joyful contentment'. Of course, Epicurus had to make do with the Greek of his day, so maybe it is all a translation issue. Thanks for the reference to "Beyond Virtue". It is on my reading list now
That’s a brilliant insight, Jackson. I will definitely cover that in a future post. I think you’ll like After Virtue. How long have you been interested in Greek philosophy?
“After Virtue,”—sorry, and thank you. I should double check my unfamiliar references, then check them again, but I was writing too quickly. I have had a mild interest in Greek philosophy for many years, off and on; it is sort of on now after many years off, triggered, probably, by all of the devotees of Seneca and Epictetus I seem to be seeing everywhere, and my feeling that I don’t quite resonate fully with them.
I know what you mean. There's a lot of interest in the Greeks among people curious about philosophy and life. Quotes by figures like Seneca and Epictetus are everywhere. They have something to offer, but I've found Epicurean philosophy to have profound insights that are often overlooked and misrepresented.
Thanks, Tristan! These are excellent points. It’s true. Epicurean virtue lies in a shared sensory experience with the goal of achieving ataraxia. An ethic emerges naturally from observation and first principles. “Do to others as you would have them do to you” is an ethic arrived at without any commandments. It’s just the logical extension of the desire to maintain ataraxia. Thanks for your thoughtful comments.
I like Epicurus combination of Virtue and Pleasure more than for example the false dichotomy of the Stoics of Pleasure/ Virtue ( where they mean actually the bad consequences of some choices for Pleasure but mix this)
„Prudence teaches that we cannot live a life of virtue without living a life of Pleasure“
Letter of Menoceus
We need life and a body and to fulfill their natural/ necessary desires ( which brings pleasure ) for being able to be virtous.
Without a body there is no virtue ( Some Stoics thought after death the soul of a Sage exists further what many modern Stoics/ Epicureans would deny, but there was light disregard of pleasure and the body in ancient Stoicism. )
“It is not an unbroken succession of drinking-bouts and of revelry, not sexual love, not the enjoyment of the fish and other delicacies of a luxurious table, which produce a pleasant life; it is sober reasoning, searching out the grounds of every choice and avoidance, and banishing those beliefs through which the greatest tumults take possession of the soul.“ ( Seeds of CBT )
Letter of Menoceus
A Pleasent life is a life where you reflect and fulfill your values and social duties and social desires / feelings( compassion ) for Peace of Mind ( Ataraxia) / Tranquility/ Pleasure for what is also a virtuos Life.
Yes you can take Tranquilizers or Ignore facts of the World for Tranquility but that has often ( not always ) negative consequences (Pain, Trouble of Mind ).
For a surgery or psychological problems pain killers could be rational, an problems in the news where you can do nothing and frustrates one a shift of perspective couldnbe beneficial like the Stoics teach to ignore things/subjects outside of ones Control ( „thats nothing to me“) Sometimes this could be a healthy/prudent form of ignorance. But not always, so do sober reasoning for all your desires and consequences 🤗
Yes, virtue and pleasure are better integrated in Epicureanism.
So, the summary presented in this post seems to suggest that there really is one over-arching kind of pleasure, ataraxia. It is best because it is not as fleeting and does not have the deleterious consequences of the other kinds of pleasure that you mention; but it is still pleasure because it can be felt: it is a positve feeling, rather than just a neutral void. I mention this so that if my impression is mistaken you can write about it and clarify, maybe over several different posts. Anyway, if my impression is even close to correct, then it is perhaps misleading to speak of an ethics based on pleasure--"hedonistic" ethics--and instead the announced principle should be, say, 'joyful contentment'. Of course, Epicurus had to make do with the Greek of his day, so maybe it is all a translation issue. Thanks for the reference to "Beyond Virtue". It is on my reading list now
That’s a brilliant insight, Jackson. I will definitely cover that in a future post. I think you’ll like After Virtue. How long have you been interested in Greek philosophy?
“After Virtue,”—sorry, and thank you. I should double check my unfamiliar references, then check them again, but I was writing too quickly. I have had a mild interest in Greek philosophy for many years, off and on; it is sort of on now after many years off, triggered, probably, by all of the devotees of Seneca and Epictetus I seem to be seeing everywhere, and my feeling that I don’t quite resonate fully with them.
I know what you mean. There's a lot of interest in the Greeks among people curious about philosophy and life. Quotes by figures like Seneca and Epictetus are everywhere. They have something to offer, but I've found Epicurean philosophy to have profound insights that are often overlooked and misrepresented.
Thanks, Tristan! These are excellent points. It’s true. Epicurean virtue lies in a shared sensory experience with the goal of achieving ataraxia. An ethic emerges naturally from observation and first principles. “Do to others as you would have them do to you” is an ethic arrived at without any commandments. It’s just the logical extension of the desire to maintain ataraxia. Thanks for your thoughtful comments.